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Yesterday I made a comment on one of Diaan's pix: http://75.co.za/diaan/2010/09/29

I made this comment on the basis that I didn't feel the photograph celebrated the sensuality or sexuality of this woman at all. The image made me feel uneasy & in the moment after viewing this work I felt (strongly, at the time) that I wanted to voice how I felt about this. Everyone has a right to their opinion, right? !! right. I am posting this because some graphers have asked me why I removed my comments & there are 2 reasons... Firslty, I felt the comments were taken personally (I'm an artist myself & fully understand the argument that we are attached to our work because we invest in it emotionally) but I also feel that we should be open and not oversensitive to critique. I think we can all learn to take critique gracefully - and value opinions others may have that differ from our own.  My comment was not a personal attack - but I felt that the tone of the replies to my comments became personal.  Secondly, the space had become gendered. As a woman, I felt like I was being pushed to the margins.

 

14h06 Friday
01, October
2010
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critique, 75, oversensitivity, subjective, art, girl, b&w, freedom, voice, words, rant, debate, discussion
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44 Comments
 
  1. Jeff Rikhotso

    I like the first 1 where she is lying on her side.

  2. Sam Buk

    http://75.co.za/diaan/2010/09/29

    it's a pity you felt the need to remove your comments regardless of how you felt. i thought you shied away from being accountable for what you said (in a public space).

    however, you were brave enough not to just sweep the issue under the carpet and make a statement in the form of this post.

    we'll comment when the words come...

  3. Greer

    I also want to say - what drew my to 75 was the democratic way i which this space works. , anyone from any background and using any camera to shoot any subjectmatter can publish their work here. I feel like since we have these freedoms, we should also not be afraid to voice how we feel. what moves us? what challenges us? what doesn't?

  4. Diaan

    By removing your comments all you did was victimise yourself. Sorry, self censorship is an act of cowardice.

  5. Greer

    @ sambuk
    fair point. And above I give 2 reasons why I removed my comments. I didn't feel like engaging in the discussion anymore. And in doing so, I did walk away. Sometimes we think its easier to remove ourselves from a situation because we don't 'feel' like dealing with it at that time.

  6. Greer

    I don't think you can call that censorship, Diaan.
    But if you see it that way, its your opinion right?

  7. lebogang nkoane

    Well here is the thing — regardless of which side of the coin the debate swayed or pushed anybody: we are now left with a void of not being able to learn from the argument/discussion.

    Which, I think somebody of importance in history said this: what was said is now lost.

    *sigh

  8. Greer

    like Diaan said yesterday, he has the 'evidence'. I'm certain he'll be happy to share it with you Lebogang or anyone else who wants a copy.

  9. lebogang nkoane

    Alas — you missed my point. It's okay.

  10. Greer

    no I got you.
    WE did miss an opportunity to learn from it.
    and I regret the REaction now.
    but I felt like what I was saying was misunderstood, and responses to my argument was reduced to cyber-bullying- whatever you wish to call it.
    this is not a playground
    well, not *that* sort of playground anyway.

  11. Sam Buk

    there's regret. there's admission. can we move on?

  12. Sam Buk

    to the gender issue.

  13. Uno

    I've posted something that can continue this dicussion on the gender note:

    http://75.co.za/diaan/2010/09/29

    word.

  14. Sam Buk

    there is a tendency on 75 for images such as diaan's to illicit male dominated comments and when a female objects in any way, it's easy for "her" to be boxed out.

  15. lebogang nkoane

    lol @ "tendency" — this is a revolutionary house!

    *hides*

  16. Greer

    I think UP's comment said it all.


    aluta continua.

  17. Sam Buk

    it's true though lebogang. what happened here repeats itself over and over again outside of this space "in the real world" per say. women are outnumbered. and those that object or raise their voices are far too easily dismissed, taunted etc. because it's boys' talk, it's not a big deal, these self righteous women power bitches must get over themselves right?

  18. lebogang nkoane

    … I can't agree with all that. I've never done that (to a woman). I that roll with people that do that (to women).

  19. Sam Buk

    i wasn't referring to you directly.

  20. Greer

    I agree with that. The responses to my comment yesterday were as Sam Buk says, mere 'boys talk'. And If you ladies don't like it you better shut up. I'm not one to *shy* away from an argument. But if it's not engaging, not thought provoking and where most of the thinking and response- formulating is done below the belt, count me OUT.

    word.

  21. lebogang nkoane

    @Sam … and thus I couldn't agree, I can only represent self.

    @Shy1: really? I don't recall anybody else engaging you besides Diaan and thus, too I can't agree with the "boys talk": everybody else commented on the photograph and moved on.

  22. Greer

    @ lebogang. I was referring to the comments in general - to the image. And yes, also to Diaan's response to my comments.

  23. Greer

    http://75.co.za/diaan/2010/09/29

  24. lebogang nkoane

    I still don't see that: 9-10 other people commented (outside of you and Diaan): I do not see a single remark that could be inferred as 'boys talk' or as you put it: "If you ladies don't like it you better shut up".

    Unless, there is something I am missing, if so please show me.

  25. Greer

    ask diaan to email the relevant 'evidence'.

  26. Greer

    and can I add: alas, I think you miss the point here.

  27. cazpix

    wow totally missed all of this.

  28. lebogang nkoane

    Ha! Shy1: the only missing evidence is there ones you deleted.

  29. Greer

    well, diaan has a copy in his inbox, so its not missing.

  30. lebogang nkoane

    So, how is it then it was 'boys talk' when what was missing is what you said? I am confused.

    But, alas I fear the proverbial is circular.

    I amma go get drunk.

    P!

  31. Greer

    Um hello?
    I'm not following your train of thought here.
    Thus,
    you're not the only one who's confused.

  32. GameBoY

    nice photo. :-)

  33. Nappy Head

    Beef

  34. Nappy Head

    Aaaaand the train of thought derails.

    *crash

  35. GameBoY

    @ nappy head

    hehehe

  36. Buchu

    All I wanna say is I prefer this to the panties photo ( it didn't offend my sensibilities though)

    I prefer Sam Buk's argument to Lebogang's

    I prefer Uno's analyses to the pettiness going

    Let the women speak.

    "If I don't like it, I don't like it, it don't mean that I'm hating"
    -Common

  37. Nappy Head

    imagine an argument where no one listens to anything but the sound of their own voice as they voice their disposition. yes. a few rebuttals down the line and the arguments are so muddled and conflated that it no longer warrants any kind of serious read. yes. it's like a good novel intentionally written badly. and then there's gameboy, who takes a young naruto approach. haha. kudos to that in this day and age. buchu, are you the refuel for a fire that has already burned twice?

    *gets his dry maize and a pan. time for real popcorn.

  38. GameBoY

    I guess everybody now knows who they are as graphers.

    @ Nappy Head QUOTE "yes. a few rebuttals down the line and the arguments are so muddled and conflated that it no longer warrants any kind of serious read. yes. it's like a good novel intentionally written badly."

    kudos to that.

    *checking for change to see if he can buy popcorn*

  39. Buchu

    @ Nappy,
    "imagine an argument where no one listens to anything but the sound of their own voice as they voice their disposition.
    - isn't this what happened just now?
    Anyways this is my final post on this topic
    cos all these arguments are going around it circles and
    are just gonna make these photos "go platinum"
    I want 40 + comments too!!!

  40. Nappy Head

    @ Buch. I was describing this thread.

  41. Greer

    @ buchu et al,
    "I feel that we should be open and not oversensitive to critique. I think we can all learn to take critique gracefully - and value opinions others may have that differ from our own"

    that's been my argument from the beginning.

    peace.

  42. Nappy Head

    I remembered a harsh criticism on 75.

    http://75.co.za/ukarabo/2010/09/08

    Do transplant my comment on the artist and the audience onto/into this thread.

  43. NguJaz

    i won't go through this here debate
    but i do like this image

  44. NguJaz

    okay -- y'all done forced me into the debate

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